Question: What if FCA made really reliable cars?

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 01/15/2016 at 12:01 • Filed to: None

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Serious question is serious. FCA brands make some of the coolest products around...no really they do...but they all kinda, well, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! when talking about !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . But what if they didn’t? Could you imagine how much better they would sell? What if they broke into the top 5 most reliable brands, could you even imagine what that would do to the global car market?

I really like FCA products, they make some seriously cool stuff from the abarth 500 to the renegade and everything in between, I even think that some of their mainstream stuff is starting to get really good. The new pacifica looks amazing with or without the caveat of being a van.

But

I can’t in good conscious buy one knowing that they will:

Have problems within the warranty period

Be a money hole after the warranty period.

Just think about it for a minute...what if they were good.

Sorry If I offend FCA loyalists or unionists, its not my intent.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:06

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That’s why you get a lease.

Textured Soy Protein > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:06

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You do what I did: buy an old one that’s already had most of the depreciation taken out of it, and spend a not-insignificant amount of money to get it up to snuff.

(Latest WK Grand Cherokee soon-to-be expense: one or more of my TPMS sensors is going bad, so my TPMS light keeps randomly blinking when the signal from one or more of the sensors cuts out. But it’s not fully dead, so when the guy at Discount Tire scanned the sensors, they all gave a reading, and he had no idea which sensor to replace. So...I either let the TPMS light keep blinking at me until the sensor(s) batteries fully die, or I just replace all of them to get it over with.)

HammerheadFistpunch > Textured Soy Protein 01/15/2016 at 12:08

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Factors into my question a little: What would it be like to live in a world where FCA products don’t depreciate like a rock [aside from the JK]? and they were desirable in the used market?

Future next gen S2000 owner > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:08

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What if the world wasn’t flat? What if witches didn’t eat children? What if sea monsters didn’t spite sailors? What if the sun god didn’t rise in the morning? What if the human sacrifices didn’t bring the rain back?

Some things are just a mystery.

Übel > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:10

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Way to live up to stereotypes, Fiat.

Urambo Tauro > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:10

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Chrysler and Dodge have a history of very cool-looking cars, and it makes me sad that I won’t buy one.

It just seems to me that EVERY Chrysler product I’ve been in has some kind of electrical problem somewhere. Could be the radio, HVAC controls, a switch, or something else. When I ride in one, I feel like anything that’s still working is on the verge of failure, and I just can’t get it out of my head.

Granted, my experience with Chrysler is far from comprehensive, and is mostly limited to their older cars with some miles behind them. But the used market is where my options are, and I just can’t bring myself to even consider buying one. Have they gotten better? I don’t know, and if they have, it could be some time before I find out for myself.

Tom McParland > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:11

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I’ve been thinking about this for awhile too. My biggest question is...is making reliable cars really that hard and/or expensive to do? No brand, not even Honda or Toyota, makes 100% perfectly reliable cars. There are always a few bad eggs, but statiscally speaking a 2015 Camry will most likely hold up better in 10 years than a 2015 Chrysler 200- all esle being equal in terms of usage and maintance.

So why can’t FCA just make them better? I’m not a fan of GM cars, but that is for personal preferance reasons not because of overall quality. I will say that GM can assemble some pretty durable stuff...so can Ford. What really is stopping FCA from doing the same?

I still have not figured this out.

smobgirl > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:12

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If I remember correctly, the Fiat rating is mostly due to the craptastic infotainment system they installed in the 500L.

HammerheadFistpunch > Urambo Tauro 01/15/2016 at 12:13

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same story. I asked my uncle who does quality engineering for Toyota what he thought about this very problem when we were chatting one night.

“Chrysler makes some very cool products, but they all fall apart around 70,000 miles.”

Keep in mind that this isn’t just bias...his teams JOB is to buy and test the competition to destruction for bench-marking.

TheHondaBro > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:14

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Jesus.

...

A bumper sticker told me it was the answer.

HammerheadFistpunch > Tom McParland 01/15/2016 at 12:15

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Yeah, im not asking for perfection, but what a world it would be if the coolness of the FCA lineup was in the top 5 in reliability. Follow up question: are interesting cars and reliable cars mutually exclusive?

HammerheadFistpunch > smobgirl 01/15/2016 at 12:16

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oh, there is certainly more to it than infotainment. The 500 has a poor reliability index not just low consumer scores.

wiffleballtony > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:16

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It’s a fair question. I wouldn’t buy an FCA product or recommend one for that very reason.

For Sweden > Tom McParland 01/15/2016 at 12:17

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Manufacturing costs skyrocket as acceptable tolerances decrease. Building a part with dimensions within 0.001 inch of the design is far, far more expensive than a part built within 0.01 inch.

HammerheadFistpunch > wiffleballtony 01/15/2016 at 12:18

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right? There are some that I would seriously consider if i didn’t know any better.

For Sweden > Übel 01/15/2016 at 12:18

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Dang Dart stop being like that.

davedave1111 > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:18

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You’re overstating things a bit, in my experience with Fiats. They’re not that bad at all, and at least they’re cheap to fix when things do eventually go wrong.

The problem is that they’re cheap cars, built to a budget and/but offering excellent value for money, and you can’t really change that without driving up prices.

HammerheadFistpunch > For Sweden 01/15/2016 at 12:19

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And yet a new Toyota isn’t substantially different in cost to a new Dodge (taking away dealer incentives)

Cé hé sin > Übel 01/15/2016 at 12:20

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Interesting how Audi, a brand much complained about on forums, do so much better than Ford.

deekster_caddy > Tom McParland 01/15/2016 at 12:20

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It comes down to engineering, parts suppliers and assembly. Somebody on the assembly line _should_ be able to halt the line if there’s a problem. The stories about the GM/Toyota joint venture at the NUMMI plant show the benefits that can come along if the assemblers are able to report major problems or slow things down. It’s the ability for the manufacturer to acknowledge that people can actually be smart, and if you give them the chance to be smart they will.

Most people would prefer to make a quality product than a shitty one, but they need the corporate mindset that it’s okay to make or find mistakes, report them and fix them.

wunderwagen wants a longer roof > Übel 01/15/2016 at 12:20

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I find it hilarious that my Dodge Dart (2.0L/auto 6spd) is Dodges most reliable vehicle. The engine and transmission were primarily designed by Hyundai I think I read somewhere.

wiffleballtony > Tom McParland 01/15/2016 at 12:20

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Well I think in Toyota case the answer for reliability is to use the same drive train for 20 years, that will work all the kinks out.

HammerheadFistpunch > davedave1111 01/15/2016 at 12:22

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I’m not saying people who own FCA’s don’t love their cars, I’m saying that all the data suggest that on the whole they are well bellow par for reliability. And sure Fiats are “cheap cars” but so are Toyota’s or scions...

wiffleballtony > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:22

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I came soooooo close to buying a Challenger, but at the last moment I remembered what is likely to happen.

Cé hé sin > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:22

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Go to Italy. Just about the most common car you see is the Mk1 Panda. It’s quite a while since they went out of production yet they still seem to keep going.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:23

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It’s not that simple. If they make reliable cars, they will have reversed their entire purpose.

Now listen up because this part is very important: existence in all it’s form and splendor functions solely on one principle: Chrysler’s products are unreliable. To prove that wrong would undo reality and everything that is. Up would become down, black would become white, existence would become nothingness. In essence - if they suddenly made reliable cars, they’ll unmake the world.

Übel > Cé hé sin 01/15/2016 at 12:24

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Even more amazing, despite the original version being one of the least reliable vehicles ever made, the Allroad is apparently currently one of the MOST reliable

HammerheadFistpunch > deekster_caddy 01/15/2016 at 12:24

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I think this hints at, if not hits on, the major problem: They don’t have a specific culture of product excellence in place. You have to make changes in all parts of the organization that focus on doing the job right and not just doing the job.

Übel > wunderwagen wants a longer roof 01/15/2016 at 12:25

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And of course the same car with the Fiat engine is the least reliable car they make.

HammerheadFistpunch > Cé hé sin 01/15/2016 at 12:26

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The trick there is that they weren’t made by FCA.

Cé hé sin > davedave1111 01/15/2016 at 12:26

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Quite right. Italy is full of Mk1 Pandas and they seem to be able to keep going for a long time. Not much rust either, but Italy is rather drier than what I’m used to.

davedave1111 > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:26

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“sure Fiats are “cheap cars” but so are Toyota’s”

Not at all. Toyotas are generally significantly more expensive than a comparable Fiat. The extra money goes on build quality. Fiats are some of the best value cars on the market, where with Toyotas it’s harder to see what you’re getting for your money, at least at first glance.

HammerheadFistpunch > PotbellyJoe and 42 others 01/15/2016 at 12:27

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So, they are keeping the world in balance? What is the metaphysical purpose of Sergios sweaters?

davedave1111 > Cé hé sin 01/15/2016 at 12:28

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I think that’s partly to do with Southern Italy still being quite poor, so there’s cheap labour about. Here in the UK our labour rates are much higher so it’s less worth fixing things. Just a guess, though.

Justin Hughes > Übel 01/15/2016 at 12:29

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This is particularly interesting when you consider that many of the reported “problems” are related to poor infotainment systems. I think it’s BS, but problems connecting to Bluetooth or a clunky user interface count as reliability problems with the car.

And yet, despite FCA’s UConnect being one of the best infotainment systems in the business, their brands are still at the bottom of the reliability chart.

HammerheadFistpunch > davedave1111 01/15/2016 at 12:29

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A 500 starts at $16,845, a Yaris starts at $14,895...

They are comparably equipped.

The 500 is the more “interesting” car, but in terms of value I’m not biting off on the argument.

PotbellyJoe and 42 others > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:33

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Probably because the myth that evil is repulsive, when in actuality it is truly very tempting.

His sweaters put you at ease in a way that a suit coat does not. He wants your first impression to be “Uncle Sergio” not “Boss Sergio.” That’s how he gets you. Suddenly you are discussing life, liberty and the pursuit instead of work related matters, all the while he is judging you and trying to feed on your needs and insecurities.

That way when he does turn into boss Sergio, he can say, “Now what would your wife and three children do if you were to suddenly disappear?”

It’s quite brilliant, really.

Cé hé sin > davedave1111 01/15/2016 at 12:33

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There is that I suppose. I was there in September and saw Pande by the mille but no Ferraris or similar. Very few of the Mk2 or Mk3 Panda, interestingly, but you see the original 500 on a daily basis.

HammerheadFistpunch > TheHondaBro 01/15/2016 at 12:37

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I thought trees where the answer? hmm.

davedave1111 > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:37

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You what?! That’s bonkers. Although do bear in mind that the 500 is the silly version of the Panda designed for people who’d pay extra for a worse car because it’s cuter, and that you only get the top-spec models because you lot won’t buy the small-engined entry level version.

Here the 5 dr Yaris starts at £11.5k OTR, and the Panda starts at £9400 OTR at the moment. I think the Panda’s nearer the start of its sales cycle, too. That’s pretty typical.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > Übel 01/15/2016 at 12:39

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According to that, the Allroad is the most reliable Audi. Something’s not right there...

Textured Soy Protein > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:40

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It takes a long time to turn around perceptions of quality and thus residual values. Even if FCA products right now were super reliable, it would take several years of life in service and being on the used market before people would start thinking they’re generally reliable.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:41

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I’d say no, interesting and reliable aren’t mutually exclusive. I’ve never seen numbers from Koenigsegg, but I’ve never heard anyone complain about one either. I think there comes a certain point where people are willing to accept flaws because the ‘interesting’ part outweighs the ‘reliable’ part. (If that doesn’t make sense, it’s because I can’t into brain this morning).

HammerheadFistpunch > Textured Soy Protein 01/15/2016 at 12:42

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So true...but you have to start someplace!

davedave1111 > Cé hé sin 01/15/2016 at 12:42

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Did you see many Dacias? I’m surprised you didn’t see many Mk2 Pandas, but maybe they weren’t cheap enough for Italians with their recent economic woes.

HammerheadFistpunch > BaconSandwich is tasty. 01/15/2016 at 12:43

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maybe its the typical:

Reliable

Interesting

Affordable

Choose two

BaconSandwich is tasty. > deekster_caddy 01/15/2016 at 12:45

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In that regard, it’s pretty hard to produce a high quality product when your employees are busy drinking/toking it up on breaks.

Cé hé sin > davedave1111 01/15/2016 at 12:45

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I can’t remember I’m afraid - it was the ubiquitous Pandas that I noticed!

Somewhat surprisingly Ford are the no 2 seller in Italy although they didn’t seem particularly common.

davedave1111 > Cé hé sin 01/15/2016 at 12:47

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Are the Fords all in rental fleets or something?

vondon302 > Übel 01/15/2016 at 12:50

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Wait a minute Patriot is best jeep reliability wise??? What?

vondon302 > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:55

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As a fca worker this stings but I can’t deny it. Our newer stuff is better but it seems our work force is still butt hurt over the Daimler takeover and don’t get me started on Sergio. My Chrysler rule is stay away from the 3.7 and 4.7 and you’ll save yourself alot of grief.

HammerheadFistpunch > vondon302 01/15/2016 at 12:58

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I hope you don’t take a personal offense from this, if anything I want to make a point of how compelling the new stuff is and how much more compelling it would be if it didn’t come with a reliability caveat. I know there are lots of talented and hard working people at FCA but I also know that it takes more for a corporation to build amazing products than talented workers. It must be frustrating.

Somethin' 'bout a truck > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 12:59

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If FCA built reliable I would own one. They make cars that you can have fun driving (Charger, Challenger, Durango RT, SRT, Jeep) . I just can’t buy something that I could never drive because it would constantly be in the shop.

*Three family members own newer FCA products and have constant problems

HammerheadFistpunch > Somethin' 'bout a truck 01/15/2016 at 13:00

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That’s the rub: cool stuff, poor quality.

Vicente Esteve > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 13:03

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The dual clutch transmission is the main issue IIRC. Get a base manual without U Connect and it wouldn’t be deemed that unreliable.

Vicente Esteve > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 13:05

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I think about this way too much. What if very interesting brands made as reliable products as Toyota or Honda. Would anyone have a reason to buy a Honda or Toyota now other than reputation and lower price?

What if German cars were as reliable as Japanese? If that was the case I’d never consider a Japanese car.

HammerheadFistpunch > Vicente Esteve 01/15/2016 at 13:06

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I wonder, I don’t have any data on it.

HammerheadFistpunch > Vicente Esteve 01/15/2016 at 13:07

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yup. it brings me to the question I asked tom: are reliability and interesting mutually exclusive?

vondon302 > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 13:10

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No offense taken. After my o8 liberty fell apart and numerous dealer quality issues I currently don’t own one myself. My Manager told me I know we’re doing good when I buy another one. And yes its very frustrating . Chrysler was a better company before the Germans came at least Fiat shared tech with us. Daimler just raped us. See even I’m still sore over that. At least our shit looks cool.

deekster_caddy > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 13:22

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I’ve got a co-worker who’s a Jeep nut. He’s driving a very recent Grand Cherokee V8 (not SRT) and likes doing donuts in the parking lot, etc. His is on it’s 3rd rearend and 2nd transmission rebuild and is under 100K miles. We joke about him getting the Hellcat Jeep and how often he would break stuff on it. I’m still trying to goad him towards getting one, just because I want to drive one once, but we both know it’s not the thing he should drive. He’d hurt either himself, someone else or his wallet...

deekster_caddy > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 13:23

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Re: interesting and reliable, I’d put my Volt squarely in that category. It’s technologically interesting, and has proven itself to be overall very reliable so far. Mine’s at 40K and little to no issues.

HammerheadFistpunch > deekster_caddy 01/15/2016 at 13:23

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I want to love Jeep. I really really do, but until they start building reliable stuff again I can’t.

wunderwagen wants a longer roof > Übel 01/15/2016 at 13:23

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There are some definite QC issues unfortunately, like my car but it is not one I’m going to hold on to long after undergrad. The new Chevy Traverse my parents is better assembled and made which makes me a little annoyed I didn't go for a Cruze or Verano.

HammerheadFistpunch > deekster_caddy 01/15/2016 at 13:25

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I really liked my time in the 1st gen Volt. But to be fair, it should be good considering its flagship status (or at least how important it was for the company) and its gestation period.

Luc - The Acadian Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 13:32

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I agree. The Most expensive vehicle I ever owned turned out to be the most troublesome as well.

In 37,000 miles here is the list of thing I can remember getting replaced under warranty:

-complete steering rack (inner tie rods not serviceable so they replace the whole thing)

-1 catalytic converter

- complete sunroof assembly (sunroof went off track and broke everything that got in the way)

-Heater core

-passenger side motor mount

-Black plastic rocker panels TWICE! (they crack for no reason)

-There is more but I can’t remember of the top of my head

So roughly 5 grand of warranty work on a $53K car that I bought brand new.

My 2013 Ford Fusion on the other hand?

in 38,000 miles:

Fuck all except getting the wheels replaced because the clear coat was peeling (now there is a recall on those wheels for that very reason)

It’s been by far the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned.

Luc - The Acadian Oppo > wiffleballtony 01/15/2016 at 13:40

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From experience owning a Challenger I can tell you that you are absolutely correct

wiffleballtony > Luc - The Acadian Oppo 01/15/2016 at 13:41

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Anything major on yours fail?

Luc - The Acadian Oppo > wiffleballtony 01/15/2016 at 13:43

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http://oppositelock.kinja.com/i-agree-the-mo…

TylerLinner > Übel 01/15/2016 at 13:46

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I enjoy that the BRZ and FR-S have notably different satisfaction scores.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Übel 01/15/2016 at 14:28

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Is this from Consumer Reports? As a Fiat 500L owner, I know for a fact that Americans are creeping their DCTs and then complaining about reliability when the clutches overheat. Honestly Fiat was stupid to program the DCT to auto-creep.

Not a reliability problem. I would never claim that Fiats are anywhere close to Corolla reliability. But ours has been trouble-free for 2 years and 25k miles, fingers crossed. I told my wife to avoid letting it creep, and she operates cars as the typical driver does—go pedal, stop pedal, oblivious to anything else. No problems even with her as the primary driver.

There are lots of Abarth owners (same engine) with 70-100k miles now. Problems are few and minor. Fiat actually had some brick failures early on (the Multiair system simulates a variable intake cam with hydraulic actuators driven indirectly by the exhaust cam), but those were isolated mostly to earlier European versions of Multiair. Leaks of any sort don’t seem to be a thing with newer Fiats.

Consumer Reports ratings are also skewed by self-selection. Because the 500L sells relatively slowly, the people who had “problems” become the most vocal.

I won’t say everyone should buy a Fiat, but let’s be real, the reliability image is just confirmation bias with no supporting evidence in Fiat’s current cars.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Vicente Esteve 01/15/2016 at 14:57

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Better yet, get a DCT and don’t let it creep.

hike > Übel 01/15/2016 at 18:28

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Interesting that the Cummins diesel drags down the Ram brand. Too bad FCA can’t dump Cummins because of the their rep.

Cé hé sin > davedave1111 01/15/2016 at 18:28

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They may well be (although the company I used had Fiat 500s coming out their ears)

hike > vondon302 01/15/2016 at 18:29

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When you build something for many years, you find all the issues.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Übel 01/15/2016 at 21:08

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odd that the verano is buicks best, yet the cruze is chevys worst. the 1.4 must really suck.

Vicente Esteve > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 23:54

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It damn surely seems like it.

The most interesting engine in the Dart (Abarth’s 1.4T) makes that model the most unreliable Dodge.

Vicente Esteve > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 01/15/2016 at 23:55

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I have only driven a DSG, so my experience with dual clutches isn’t vast. But what I did learn from it is that you have to teach yourself how to use it most effectively to drive it smoothly.